Quantum TikTok + Memecoin Mania + Chris Hayes on the Consideration Wars

This transcript was created utilizing speech recognition software program. Whereas it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it might include errors. Please overview the episode audio earlier than quoting from this transcript and electronic mail transcripts@nytimes.com with any questions.

Casey, what’s happening with you?

Nicely, let’s see. My boyfriend is away for per week for work, and so I made a decision to entertain myself by shopping for electronics.

You went on a procuring spree.

I did. I went to the Apple retailer. And I stated, I’m going to get a brand new iPad Professional with the flamboyant keyboard. Have you ever seen the flamboyant keyboard?

No.

It’s like these Mac keyboards, however slimmer. And it’s far more than I want, however I simply thought it seemed so cool.

And what are you going to do on that? Simply play Balatro?

Yeah, principally simply test emails. Yeah, it seems, it doesn’t matter what — yearly, oh, there’s a elaborate new laptop computer, and the battery life is unimaginable, and the processing energy, you wouldn’t imagine it. What am I doing with it? I’m checking emails.

Yeah.

Yeah. Am I responding to them? Principally no. However, oh, boy, can I learn an electronic mail?

Nobody has ever checked electronic mail and ignored it sooner.

No. [MUSIC PLAYING]

I’m Kevin Roose, a tech columnist at “The New York Occasions.”

I’m Casey Newton from “Platformer.” And that is “Laborious Fork.” This week, how TikTok died and got here again to life, and what it means for the way tech does enterprise with Donald Trump. Then, why meme cash are on the rise and the way the Trump household is cashing in. And eventually, MSNBC’s Chris Hayes is right here to debate his new e book on “.” Kevin, let’s ask him just a few questions whereas we play Subway Surfers on our telephones.

Are you able to say that once more? I’m watching YouTube. [MUSIC PLAYING]

Nicely, Casey, large week in Washington clearly. We had the inauguration of President Trump for his second time period in workplace.

I seen you weren’t on the dais. Did you not give him 1,000,000 {dollars}?

No, I solely gave half 1,000,000. So I used to be watching it from the subway down the road.

Unhappy.

However we did have lots of information popping out of the tech world in relation to the primary days of the Trump presidency. Monday, clearly, on the inauguration itself, we had Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Tim Cook dinner, Sundar Pichai, the entire titans of tech standing proper behind the Trump household. Elon Musk was additionally there, after all. It’s being reported that he’s more likely to get an workplace within the West Wing.

And we even have had some bulletins popping out of this primary wave of govt orders. The Biden administration’s govt order on AI was repealed. There’s additionally been an announcement of a brand new main AI-infrastructure venture, which we’ll speak about in a second, referred to as Stargate.

However I believe what’s the overriding story of the previous week is that we’re beginning to see how Silicon Valley needs to do enterprise in the course of the Trump administration. And the place I wish to begin this dialogue is with what’s been occurring with TikTok as a result of it has been a wild trip. Clearly, final week, we gave our TikTok replace the place we referred to as TikTok V12 ultimate ultimate use this. However that was not the tip of the TikTok story.

No, there was yet one more ultimate ultimate V to be issued, Kevin.

So what’s going on with TikTok? Catch us up.

Nicely, Kevin, it goes like this. TikTok was banned, after which it went down for about 12 hours. After which it got here again, however solely type of. And so it’s now each alive and lifeless on the similar time, present in a state of quantum superposition with itself. It’s Schrodinger’s app.

So individuals who use TikTok opened their apps over the weekend — I imagine it was on Saturday —

Sure.

— and noticed a message. And Casey, what did that message say?

Nicely, Kevin, when individuals opened the app, they have been greeted with a display that stated that TikTok quote, “isn’t out there proper now.” Nevertheless it added, quote, “we’re lucky that President Trump has indicated that he’ll work with us on an answer to reinstate TikTok as soon as he takes workplace. Please keep tuned.”

So I wish to ask about this message as a result of I believed it was very attention-grabbing. However first, Casey, what did you do in the course of the 12 hours that TikTok was down? How was the outage for you?

I realized Mandarin. It was unimaginable. I by no means realized that was all that I wanted.

However Duolingo actually did me a strong. No, I’ll inform you what occurred, Kevin. I used to be on my method to a good friend’s home. And he was having a home warming. And I did pull up TikTok as a result of a good friend had messaged me saying, oh my gosh, it’s already down. This was type of Pacific time. I had anticipated that the app wouldn’t go down till Sunday morning Pacific time. Nevertheless it was already gone. And I received to the get together, and other people have been buzzing about the truth that TikTok was not there. And I believe that’s as a result of that a few of them have been taking part in King’s Cup, they usually have been hoping to add some highlights to TikTok, they usually have been prevented from doing so.

King’s Cup, after all, is a consuming recreation. However go on.

Sure. So along with TikTok, a bunch of different ByteDance apps disappeared from the Apple and Google US app shops, together with Lemonaid, CapCut, and the one that you simply truly texted me about with a really alarmed tone over the weekend. Marvel Snap disappeared.

We’ve made passing jokes about Marvel Snap through the years. It’s a cell card recreation. It’s so enjoyable. I don’t even have it on my cellphone anymore as a result of it’s the factor that’s too addictive for me to have the ability to get my arms on. However I nonetheless watch tons of content material of creators taking part in this online game. And there was by no means even a touch that it will be in any method implicated on this ban. Nevertheless it seems that the writer of Marvel Snap is owned by ByteDance.

So it simply disappeared together with all the opposite ByteDance apps.

It simply disappeared. It was like a Thanos snap. Marvel Snap was snapped out of existence. And it took a pair days for it to snap again.

Sure. So let’s speak about what’s going on with these apps as a result of many of those apps are actually working once more, however nonetheless not out there within the App Retailer. So is TikTok banned or not?

Sure. So —

Right here’s the factor. So TikTok was banned by a regulation — PAFACAA —

PAFACAA.

— that we’ve talked about on the present earlier than. And the regulation didn’t go away any exceptions. What it stated was, the president can subject a 90-day extension for ByteDance to discover a deal to divest the app. President Biden selected not to do this. And this banning of TikTok occurred as Biden was leaving workplace, however earlier than Trump had taken workplace.

This weekend, Trump stated, no, no, no, there is no such thing as a want for you, the app shops and the entire ByteDance service suppliers, to take TikTok down. You possibly can go away it up. I’ve received your again. I’m going to signed an govt order on Monday. And I promise you there shall be no authorized legal responsibility.

And so when it will get to Monday, Trump does truly do that. And the businesses concerned have totally different takes on this. So Oracle, which gives the entire internet hosting infrastructure for TikTok in the USA, they are saying, we imagine you President Trump. We are able to go forward and flip the switches on.

Akamai, which is what they name a content-delivery community that Oracle makes use of to just be sure you can get your TikTok repair regardless of the place you might be, they are saying, we imagine you, President Trump. We’re going to go forward and flip the servers on.

Apple and Google are just a little bit extra nervous about this complete factor. They’re studying the a part of the regulation that claims that not simply President Trump, however a future president may maintain them accountable for enabling this app, which, once more, is banned beneath the regulation that was handed by Congress and upheld by the Supreme Court docket. And that tremendous, by the best way, Kevin, $5,000 per consumer. TikTok has one thing like 170 million customers in the USA. These fines would stretch into the a whole lot of billions of {dollars}.

Sure, these can be ruinous fines if this regulation have been truly enforced in response to the letter of the regulation at any level sooner or later.

Sure. And in order that results in the wild scenario that we’ve been on this week, the place should you had already downloaded TikTok onto your machine, you need to use it basically as regular. However should you didn’t, and also you’re simply listening to about TikTok for the primary time on “Laborious Fork” at present, and also you wish to go test it out, you can’t obtain the app.

It actually isn’t within the App Retailer. There is no such thing as a method to get it onto an Android machine or an Apple machine.

Completely not. And by the best way, the identical holds true for Marvel Snap, and a few of these different apps that have been affected.

And what about updates to present apps? Like, can they replace the app with out going by way of Google or Apple?

No, they’ll’t. And this is without doubt one of the large questions that we’re all going to have our eyes on is, how badly does the standard of the TikTok service degrade? As a result of I don’t find out about you, however I’m taking a look at my app updates kind of day by day as a result of typically you’ll truly discover information in there. An app I cowl has added some function, they usually’ll simply disclose it proper within the launch notes.

And what you’ll discover should you do that’s that apps like TikTok are updating actually each week, typically each few days. And included in these updates are numerous bug fixes. Generally safety vulnerabilities are recognized and patched. New options get added. Different options get eliminated. And now ByteDance goes to be in a scenario the place into April, until one thing adjustments, they’re not going to have the ability to ship updates to American customers.

Yeah, so that’s the present state of TikTok. It’s wild. I don’t suppose we’ve ever had an app of any measurement that existed on this limbo state the place it’s technically unlawful beneath the regulation, however the service suppliers, a few of them are making it potential to entry. But in addition, the app shops are usually not letting you get it. We’ve by no means been right here earlier than.

No, we actually haven’t. And simply to essentially underscore this, we’re able the place the Congress has handed, the earlier president signed, and the Supreme Court docket upheld a regulation, and the incoming president stated, no, no, no, that regulation doesn’t apply as a result of I say so. And I’ve the manager authority to say that this regulation doesn’t apply. Within the TikTok case, it feels pretty foolish and benign. I can think about different circumstances the place that will be an enormous drawback.

Yeah. I imply, it does name into query the type of efficacy of checks and balances. If a president can simply come into workplace on day one and declare {that a} regulation handed by Congress and upheld by the Supreme Court docket and signed by the earlier president is invalid, like “Schoolhouse Rock” would have one thing to say about that.

Yeah, appears dangerous, as they are saying on Twitter.

However let’s speak about — in order that’s the place we’re at present as of this taping. What occurs subsequent? So President Trump comes into workplace. He indicators a bunch of govt orders. He points a bunch of declarations. One of many issues he says is that he’s going to increase the deadline for the type of enforcement of PAFACAA by 75 days to present the businesses concerned a method to attempt to make a deal.

Yeah, that’s proper. And particularly what he says, Kevin, is that what he needs to see is for ByteDance to divest TikTok by way of some sort of three way partnership between the USA and TikTok’s present homeowners. There may be not a selected plan. It’s additionally not clear what it signifies that the USA owns 50 % of TikTok. Like, are we turning TikTok right into a public utility?

Sure, let’s truly play the clip as a result of I believe what you’re saying as characterizing his remarks is definitely far more clear than what he truly stated, which was — I simply struggled to make heads or tails of it. So let’s play Trump’s feedback when he was requested concerning the delayed enforcement of the TikTok ban.

So the Larry that Donald Trump is referring to all through that clip is Larry Ellison, the founding father of Oracle, which is a supplier to TikTok and perhaps additionally a possible bidder. However like, what’s he speaking about with permits and a deal and this factor being value $1 trillion? Like, are you able to translate what he’s saying?

I’m glad you requested me this as a result of I’ve a sense that is going to come back up lots over the subsequent 4 years. And so I simply wish to say, from right here going ahead, the reply to, what’s Donald Trump speaking about? I really have no idea. And I can’t speculate. It will be so irresponsible for me to say that I knew.

All we are able to think about is that there’s going to be some type of deal, perhaps, that appears one thing like what he proposed throughout his first administration, which was that he actually needed TikTok to go to considered one of his supporters. So within the first Trump administration, it was both going to be Oracle or Walmart, which had donated lots to his marketing campaign. Or this time round, it’s going to be Larry Ellison of Oracle or Elon Musk, who’s his new favourite donor. However what does the precise form of this factor seem like? I don’t know. And it’s all beginning to really feel very foolish.

Yeah, and I’m not even certain what mechanism would enable the US authorities to get 50 % of no matter trillion-dollar deal Donald Trump is imagining. I imply, there’s a universe by which you could possibly nationalize TikTok or partly nationalize it and have actually the US Treasury grow to be a 50 % shareholder within the new, spun-off TikTok. However I’m undecided that’s what he means.

However I imply, can we simply say, that’s loopy. Specifically, it’s loopy for a Republican to suggest nationalizing TikTok. I don’t even know what meaning. Though, presumably, if the US authorities did personal TikTok, then Donald Trump would have lots to say about how content material will get moderated there and perhaps what kind of posts get promoted or not.

Proper. So now they’ve this 75-day grace interval, this extension through govt order. Are you aware what’s more likely to occur within the subsequent 75 days? Like, are there deal talks happening? What do you suppose goes to occur?

I imply, a few actually necessary issues have occurred over the previous few days, Kevin. And I believe chief amongst them is that the Chinese language authorities has signaled for the primary time that it will be OK with ByteDance divesting TikTok. That is big.

And your entire time that we’ve been protecting this story, so like going again 5 years now, in nearly each story, there’s been some line about the truth that China possible wouldn’t enable this to undergo, that this could harm their nationwide satisfaction. It will set a horrible precedent. You possibly can think about all of the the reason why China wouldn’t need the USA to say, hey, you must divest that app.

However all of this dialogue is going on towards the backdrop of Trump threatening to position huge tariffs on Chinese language items, which may harm the Chinese language financial system. And Trump has explicitly linked, in conversations with reporters, TikTok’s destiny to the tariffs that he’s fascinated with putting on Chinese language items. So TikTok has now grow to be a chess piece in serving to Trump and the Chinese language work out, what are the tariffs going to be? What’s China going to be OK with? And so presumably no matter negotiation is about to happen goes to contain these issues.

That’s actually attention-grabbing. I’m additionally curious concerning the shifting politics of all this. One factor that’s been very unusual to me over the previous week or so is that I’ve simply not been capable of predict with any accuracy which politicians from which events are going to really feel which method about no matter’s occurring with TikTok.

So simply earlier than inauguration, we had the Biden administration, which, keep in mind, signed the regulation forcing the sale of TikTok, attempting to distance itself from the ban, saying, oh, that’s as much as Donald Trump to determine what he needs to do about TikTok. In order that was complicated factor primary.

I used to be really so exasperated by this, Kevin. You concentrate on the truth that that is really the one piece of tech regulation that Joe Biden moved and truly received signed into regulation throughout his total presidency. And simply as it’s taking impact, his press Secretary, Karine Jean-Pierre referred to as TikTok’s menace to go darkish on Sunday, quote, “a stunt.” And she or he additionally stated, we see no cause for TikTok or different firms to take actions within the subsequent few days earlier than the Trump administration takes workplace.

I used to be like, you see no cause? You handed a regulation saying it’s unlawful and that you will see that anybody who ignores this regulation and as much as a whole lot of billions of {dollars}. So sure, the truth that Biden tried to disown his personal regulation, I discovered profoundly embarrassing.

Yeah, it was tremendous bizarre. The opposite complicated factor is that some Republicans who would usually go together with Donald Trump and saying, let’s make a deal, are popping out towards the extension and the potential reprieve that Donald Trump is contemplating providing to TikTok. Specifically, Senator Tom Cotton posted on Saturday on X, principally saying to the tech firms which can be the service suppliers to TikTok, you higher not let this factor again, otherwise you’re in bother.

He posted, quote, “any firm that hosts, distributes, companies or in any other case facilitates communist-controlled TikTok may face a whole lot of billions of {dollars} of ruinous legal responsibility beneath the regulation.” So principally, some Republicans, whilst Donald Trump is expressing curiosity in making a deal, are saying, there shall be no deal. That is good regulation. It stands. And god allow you to should you provide this app in your app shops or by way of your companies.

In order that’s true, Kevin. However I believe it’s notable how few individuals truly stated what Tom Cotton stated, proper? Remind your self why Congress handed this regulation within the first place and why Joe Biden signed it. They stated TikTok is a transparent and current hazard to the nationwide safety of the USA, that they imagine that ByteDance is likely to be utilizing this app to spy on Individuals, to misuse their information, to unfold propaganda and sow dissent in the USA. They painted this image of TikTok as this true menace.

After which they lastly handle to cross a ban. After which simply because it goes into impact, everybody impulsively both says, no, don’t truly implement it, or they only throw their arms up and say nothing. In order that, once more, I believe it’s so embarrassing that Tom Cotton was actually one of many solely loud voices saying, hey, keep in mind once we handed a regulation?

Proper. There’s simply this collective amnesia setting in. Oh, we did that?

Yeah. And it actually makes you surprise like, was this app actually that large of an issue, if even after banning it, it looks as if no person truly has the desire to implement the ban?

Yeah. I imply, one interpretation is that they’re simply afraid of backlash from TikTok customers, lots of whom are of voting age. They usually’re type of watching the freak out over the potential disappearance of TikTok and saying, I truly don’t wish to take that on as a legal responsibility.

I imply, that is sensible to me logically. However you keep in mind in the course of the discussions about banning the app, when TikTok customers flooded the cellphone traces in Congress and stated, don’t you dare do that. Congress was enraged. They usually stated, how dare you train resize your freedom of speech on this democracy? Now we’re going to ban you additional exhausting, TikTok, for daring to problem us.

It’s so messy. I used to be attempting to clarify to somebody in my life lately what the newest on TikTok is. And I simply discovered myself, like, twisting up in knots as a result of I really — like, what is going on now, I’ve no prior precedent for. There is no such thing as a roadmap for. We’re in utterly uncharted territory.

However I wish to simply broaden out past TikTok just a little bit as a result of one thing else that has been catching my eye over the previous week or so, as we enter into this new administration, is that I believe we’re beginning to see tech firms study a lesson about do enterprise throughout a Trump presidency. And that’s to principally do no matter you’ll be able to to permit President Trump to take credit score for issues that you simply have been already planning on doing or that perhaps have been already in movement, body it as a win for the Trump administration, obsequiously fawn and reward the president for his position, nonetheless large or small, in doing this.

We noticed this within the TikTok announcement, that they placed on their app about, President Trump goes to has a plan to deliver us again, even when it’s not technically true. After which await the second to cross, await the highlight to shift, and simply go about your online business the traditional method. So we’ve seen this a pair instances now.

However probably the most stark instance was one thing else that occurred this week, truly in that exact same convention the place President Trump was requested about TikTok, which is the announcement of this factor, Stargate, this new $100 billion, probably as much as half a trillion AI-infrastructure venture.

Yeah, inform us about Stargate.

So this was introduced at an enormous White Home press convention this week. It was attended by Sam Altman from OpenAI, Larry Ellison from Oracle and Masayoshi Son from SoftBank. They usually introduced this main infrastructure venture, principally spending $100 billion as much as $500 billion constructing AI infrastructure information facilities, et cetera, for using open AI in a method that they framed as sort of a nationwide AI venture.

Sure. And it is a separate firm from OpenAI, however OpenAI is predicted to be the foremost buyer.

Sure. So should you watched this press convention, should you heard any of the protection of it afterward, this was framed by the individuals main these firms, main this venture, as one thing that President Trump had type of selected and will take credit score for. Sam Altman actually received up in entrance of a microphone and stated, we couldn’t have executed this with out you, Mr. President. That is false. This can be a lie. This venture was going to occur anyway.

Wait, are you saying that Sam Altman isn’t being persistently candid about whether or not Stargate was potential with or with out?

I imply, I don’t know of some other method to characterize what occurred right here as a result of they’d already damaged floor on this venture. All the cash for this venture comes from private-sector firms. There is no such thing as a authorities funding slated to participate in Mission Stargate. That is purely a personal sector enterprise venture. However it’s one thing that they’ve managed to recast as a win for President Trump.

And I’ve two issues to say about this. One, in all probability very efficient. We all know from watching the primary Trump administration that it is a tactic that labored again and again in the course of the first Trump administration. So in all probability very efficient. However I simply suppose that is dangerous in the long run as a result of what we now have is sort of a constructed fiction that the entire largest firms in know-how are actually collaborating in co-writing together with President Trump, the place all the things dangerous is the fault of considered one of Donald Trump’s enemies, and all the things good is one thing that he had a significant hand in creating.

And I simply suppose proper now perhaps that’s comparatively innocent as a result of everybody’s doing it. There’s sort of energy in numbers. However I believe over time — I’m an individual who believes that mendacity creates dangerous karma and that someway, in some unspecified time in the future, indirectly, these CEO’s willingness to simply blatantly lie about their initiatives and their connection to the federal authorities goes to come back again to chunk them. What do you suppose?

Oh, for certain. I imply, return to the primary administration and take a look at the half lifetime of Donald Trump’s relationships along with his closest allies. They weren’t sometimes longer than a yr or two. So I count on we’re going to see lots of churning and thrashing in these relationships over the subsequent few years, Kevin.

However I additionally suppose it’s value perhaps elaborating a bit on what particularly OpenAI and different AI firms are hoping to get out of Trump and why they could have been prepared to present him some credit score for this Stargate venture. And that’s, as we talked about on the high of the present, considered one of Trump’s first acts was to repeal Biden’s govt order on AI. And that order basically simply tried to position some very gentle guardrails on the event of AI, perhaps make it transfer just a bit bit slower, perhaps ask these firms simply to do some bit extra about security.

And by eliminating that order, President Trump ensured that now there’s basically no regulatory infrastructure that’s governing the event of AI anymore. And so should you can someway get collectively half a trillion {dollars} to go construct information facilities and plug it into OpenAI’s fashions, there’s now nothing that claims you could’t. And I believe that that alone is greater than sufficient to make Sam Altman wish to rise up and say, thanks, President Trump, we couldn’t have executed it with out you.

Yeah. Casey, perhaps let’s finish this a part of the dialog with a prediction. 75 days from now — 73 days from now, when the extension interval for TikTok is over and PAFACAA lastly is slated to come back into impact and be enforced. Do you suppose the TikTok may have a brand new proprietor?

No, I don’t. I believe nothing may very well be funnier or extra possible than one thing occurring, however simply not being wrapped up in 75 days, main to a different extension that’s required to make one thing occur.

Can he simply maintain extending it indefinitely?

I believe he’s simply going to maintain attempting as a result of, once more, if he finds out that he can simply rule this nation by way of govt order and by no means must pay to any legal guidelines handed by Congress, I believe that will be actually attention-grabbing data for him.

Yeah.

What do you suppose goes to occur?

I’ll take the opposite aspect. I believe there shall be a deal.

OK.

I believe that as a result of TikTok is now a bargaining chip in these general battle with China about tariffs and all the things like that, I believe that the Chinese language authorities will say, it’s higher if we are able to eke out a greater deal on tariffs that gained’t wreck our financial system. It could be it’s value letting go of TikTok, particularly if we are able to promote it to somebody who we now have some affect over, like Elon Musk.

Fascinating. Nicely, Kevin, Elon Musk many people imagine was radicalized within the lead as much as and after his buy of Twitter. The extra that he checked out it, the extra he type of remodeled right into a sort of “Die Laborious” poster. I’m questioning, do we predict one thing comparable will occur to him if he acquires TikTok? And what kind of individual may TikTok flip Elon Musk into?

I don’t know. Perhaps he may grow to be a greater dancer, or one thing like that?

I believe he may grow to be one of many nice dancers on this nation. And I believe that will be a stupendous factor to see.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Nicely, Casey, we’re going to go from TikTok to trick shares.

That’s what I name meme cash.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Nicely, Kevin, we’ve stated earlier than {that a} large consequence of Trump’s victory is that crypto is as soon as once more on the rise. And this week, it was President Trump himself and his spouse who determined to get into the motion.

They certain did.

So inform us just a little bit about what occurred over the weekend with the Trump household and cryptocurrencies.

So it’s been a really chaotic few days. However principally the story is that this. On Friday, a number of days earlier than taking workplace, Donald Trump introduced on a submit on Reality Social that he was launching the Trump Coin. This was principally a meme coin issued by gettrumpmemes.com beneath the ticker image Trump. And Casey, I do know you’re saying this feels like a really beneficial asset. I ponder what shopping for this token entitles me to?

Yeah. What does it entitle me to, Kevin?

Completely nothing.

Oh, no.

It’s a purely speculative instrument. It didn’t entitle you to — I don’t know — a seat at inauguration or an invite to an inaugural ball. All it did was say, you now personal some Donald Trump coin.

That’s unlucky as a result of I might suppose, on the very least, should you acquired a sure degree of Trump Coin, you’ll be allowed to remove at the very least one regulation of your selection.

Perhaps that’s for V2.

Now, was the president the one Trump who issued a coin this weekend, Kevin?

Nicely, I’m glad you requested as a result of it seems he was not. On Sunday, Melania Trump went on social media and introduced her personal coin as effectively. And this foreign money, the Melania Coin, was additionally going to be issued on the web, and other people may go purchase nonetheless many they needed.

Now, Kevin, meme cash come and go fairly usually. Not all of them hit nice heights. How did the Trump and Melania cash do over the weekend?

So over the weekend, each of those cash surged in worth, truly turning into a few of the most precious cryptocurrencies in existence. At numerous factors this week, these cash have been value effectively over $10 billion. And clearly, that’s only a paper valuation. That doesn’t imply that anybody truly made billions of {dollars}. Nevertheless it does imply — and I noticed posts on social media over the weekend from individuals saying that they’d made thousands and thousands of {dollars} speculating on these meme cash.

Wow. OK. Now, Kevin, this isn’t the primary Trump-related cryptocurrency that I’m conscious of. A few of our listeners could have additionally heard about World Liberty Coin. So what’s the distinction between that one and these new cash?

Sure, there have been a number of Trump adjoining crypto initiatives. He had an NFT that he offered earlier. There was this World Liberty Coin. These have been type of loosely affiliated with the Trump household and the Trump enterprise. However these new cash, to the extent that we all know who’s behind them, they look like linked to entities managed instantly by the Trump household themselves.

So clearly these meme cash, they don’t have lots of transparency. They’re not required to reveal all the things about their possession construction. However we all know and individuals who have been reporting on this have found that Trump and his associates personal one thing like 80 % of the overall provide of those Trump Cash and 35 of the provision of Melania Cash.

Obtained it. And so a number of of us, myself included, have been referring to those as meme cash. When does a cryptocurrency grow to be a meme coin precisely?

Nicely, there are some individuals, skeptics, who would say all of those are meme cash. They don’t have something elementary underlying them. I’m not considered one of these individuals. I believe that there’s a stark divide between crypto tokens which can be supposed to supply some utility, whether or not it’s being helpful in paying for issues, whether or not it’s being utilized in sensible contracts on the Ethereum blockchain, whether or not it’s cash laundering —

Cash laundering or drug dealing.

That may be a utility. It’s not a authorized one, however it’s a utility. However what separates s these meme cash is that they’re purely speculative devices. Not even probably the most hardcore crypto boosters are arguing that these items serve a perform within the crypto market. They’re simply basically little bits of code you could purchase and promote. And should you occur to purchase on the proper time and promote on the proper time, you may make some cash. And should you don’t occur to be that fortunate, you lose your cash.

All proper. And Kevin, it does seem to be lots of people wind up dropping some huge cash once they purchase and promote meme cash. Why ought to we care about these cash particularly, on condition that they is likely to be meaningless inside a yr?

So one of many causes we must always care about it’s because it personally impacts me and a prediction that I made on this very podcast a number of weeks in the past.

Remind us about that.

So this was considered one of my predictions for 2025 within the tech trade, was {that a} newly-released crypto meme coin would briefly attain $100 billion in market cap earlier than crashing. Now, that has not occurred but. The Trump cash haven’t but reached $100 billion in market cap. However I really feel assured that earlier than the tip of the yr, a number of meme cash will attain that threshold. And I shall be confirmed proper. And I’ll get bragging rights.

However extra significantly, one cause to care about these meme cash is that they open up a brand new and worrying avenue of political corruption. It does truly imply that if you’re an abroad investor who needs to do enterprise in America in the course of the Trump administration, you’ll be able to simply go purchase some Trump Cash, and you are able to do so anonymously due to the best way that these transactions work.

And plenty of ethics, legal professionals, and different consultants have been condemning these meme cash, saying, that is actually permitting individuals to money in on the presidency. And it’s giving individuals who wish to switch cash to Donald Trump and his household a method to take action with out leaving any hint.

Nicely, can President Trump money in an enormous method instantly?

So it’s just a little difficult as a result of there are principally two methods you could become profitable by beginning a meme coin. And I do know you’re considering beginning a meme coin, so this is likely to be instantly relevant to you.

OK, I’m taking notes.

So a method you could become profitable by way of a meme coin, promoting a meme coin, is by doing what’s often known as a rugpull which is that you simply reserve some portion of the cash for your self and entities linked to you and your loved ones. You hype the cash so that folks begin shopping for it as a result of they suppose they’ll get wealthy. After which at a sure level, while you determine that you simply’ve made sufficient cash, you promote your cash to the best bidder. And if the value of the factor collapses, you wash your arms, and also you stroll away.

Wow, that looks as if an amazing deal for me.

Sure, it’s a nice deal. Many individuals have executed this to nice revenue. However on this case, the Trump Coin particularly, there are some protections towards rugpulling on this case. So in response to the individuals behind the venture, the 80 % share of Trump tokens that Trump and his associates instantly management can’t be offered unexpectedly. They’re truly doled out over a interval of about three years.

And extra relevantly, in the event that they tried to truly promote all their cash directly, it will instantly tank the value of the coin. They usually simply wouldn’t be capable of do it. So there are some sensible issues that make it exhausting for them to instantly revenue from a rugpull proper now.

All proper. So that you heard it right here from Kevin. This can be a protected and good funding. And also you may wish to transfer your retirement financial savings over instantly.

No, don’t try this. However there’s one other method you could become profitable, which is on token charges, when tokens are purchased and offered. So even when the Trump household by no means disposes of their stake in these cash, they’ll make just a little bit of cash each time a Trump coin is purchased and offered. And we don’t know precisely what number of charges they’re making on these transactions. However due to the recognition of those cash amongst individuals who like to purchase and promote meme cash, a director at Coinbase lately speculated that as of Saturday, the Trump household had already made an estimated $58 million in charges, simply from different individuals shopping for and promoting these cash.

I’m curious what individuals within the crypto trade are saying. Is that this a type of validation for them? That, oh, effectively, even the president has a meme coin now. We’re actually off to the races with crypto in Trump 2.0.

I believe some individuals within the crypto trade see this as an excellent factor. That is extra individuals speaking about crypto. Perhaps a rising tide lifts all boats. However the majority of individuals I’ve talked to and heard from and seen posting on social media about this within the crypto trade are very nervous about what this implies.

So Nick Carter, who’s a Trump-supporting crypto investor, referred to as the meme cash preposterous and stated that the individuals behind the cash have been plumbing new depths of idiocy. That was an amazing quote. One other in style crypto podcaster, Scott Melker, referred to as these cash a gratuitous money seize. So there have been simply a number of individuals within the crypto trade who stated, this isn’t how we envisioned crypto blossoming in the course of the Trump administration. May you please lay off the scams just a little bit?

I imply, it’s attention-grabbing to listen to them say that. And but, I discover myself questioning, if that’s the case, what sort of crypto coin isn’t a blatant money seize? Are there a bunch of virtuous crypto cash on the market which can be similar to elevating cash to struggle local weather change or one thing?

Nicely, there are, however they’re not the favored ones. They usually’re by no means going to go viral. And you’ll’t use them to bribe the president. So I don’t suppose there’s a vibrant future for them. However Casey, extra significantly, I’m somebody who believes that there’s a potential that one thing good does come from crypto as soon as all is claimed and executed.

I simply suppose that what’s occurring now, with the sort of open season in the course of the Trump administration for crypto, isn’t going to learn the long-term way forward for the trade as a result of should you keep in mind, in the course of the Biden administration when there was this crypto crackdown, and all of the crypto firms have been complaining about how badly they have been handled, the factor that they saved saying is, allow us to construct. Allow us to cook dinner. And we’ll present you ways critical and transformative crypto property may very well be.

Sure.

After which the floodgates open. And what occurs? The president and his spouse begin a dang meme coin. So I simply suppose there’s this elementary pressure between the individuals saying, that is going to be a critical and transformative software of know-how to the monetary trade and the individuals who wish to use it to get wealthy fast.

Sure. Additionally, these individuals didn’t construct something attention-grabbing over the previous 4 years. And it wasn’t only for regulatory causes.

And extra to that time, the individuals who spent the final 4 years telling us about all these critical and helpful crypto purposes that they have been going to construct tended to come back from firms like Coinbase and Kraken, each of which rushed to listing the Trump meme cash on their platform and revenue from the curiosity in buying and selling these cash. So the identical firms telling us how critical they have been about their plans for crypto beneath the brand new administration are additionally speeding to be the primary to learn from the foolish meme cash that Trump and his members of the family are placing out.

Fantastic. So Kevin, I’m left asking why now has been such an enormous second for these meme cash. It was solely final month that Haliey Welch’s Hawk Tuah digital coin spiked and made some huge cash for some individuals, after all, earlier than instantly dropping 95 % of its worth. And my understanding is that a part of the rationale that we’re seeing so many of those lately is due to one thing referred to as pump.enjoyable.

Sure, I’ve been dying to speak about pump.enjoyable on this present as a result of I believe it’s a platform that doesn’t get almost sufficient consideration as a driver of the current curiosity in meme cash and hypothesis and, basically, playing.

So what’s it?

Pump.enjoyable, it’s a couple of yr outdated. It’s a platform that principally makes it tremendous straightforward to create and launch a brand new meme coin on the Solana blockchain. It’s been potential for years to create meme cash. Dogecoin was created years in the past. That’s a meme coin. However you wanted just a little little bit of technical know-how. You wanted to discover ways to create a coin, perhaps to fork an present coin, perhaps to exhausting fork an present coin. And also you wanted to know code and do issues, like, create sensible contracts to manipulate the coin.

However now, with a few clicks on pump.enjoyable, you’ll be able to create your very personal meme coin and begin promoting it on the open market. And as you may count on from the title, pump.enjoyable, that is primarily an leisure platform. This can be a LARP. That is basically like a crypto carnival, the place the express aim is to drive as a lot consideration as you’ll be able to to your coin, pump up the worth, after which get out earlier than all of it crashes.

I’m simply visiting the web site for the primary time. And while you go to, there’s a pop up that comprises just a little details about the way it works and a few phrases of service. And there’s a button that you must click on to entry the location. And that button says, I’m able to pump.

Sure. In order that they’re not precisely being refined about the truth that that is all basically legalized playing and market manipulation and pump-and-dump schemes. And it isn’t even masquerading as a respectable crypto platform. And but, it is a highly regarded platform. And it’s driving lots of the curiosity in meme cash. So I’m glad we’re speaking about it at present.

So what kind of issues are individuals doing to advertise their meme cash, Kevin? As a result of President Trump has entry to the bully pulpit, and he can go on community TV and inform individuals to purchase his meme coin. However what are rank-and-file coiners doing?

So lots of it’s simply what you may think about social media advertising and marketing. They’re posting on TikTok and X about this. A few of them have discords. I imply, there are these collective efforts to simply seize as a lot viral consideration as they’ll and direct it to their coin for some period of time to boost the value. After which, as we’ve seen with meme shares and issues like that, as soon as it will get a sure gravity to it, individuals simply begin piling in as a result of they suppose they’ll time the market and principally get out earlier than the factor crashes.

As you say, it’s turning into a type of leisure for individuals who like to gamble.

Sure. And in some circumstances, persons are making a number of cash. Some persons are dropping a number of cash. In all probability extra individuals dropping cash than making a living. However, Casey, I believe we must always illustrate just a little little bit of the vibe of the pump.enjoyable meme-coin ecosystem.

Oh, yeah.

And I wish to try this by taking part in a recreation with you.

OK, let’s do it.

So I went on pump.enjoyable this morning, and I seemed up a few of the main meme cash which can be being purchased and offered on that platform. After which I got here up with my very own listing of fictional meme cash. And so I wish to play a recreation with you referred to as Meme Coin or Dream Coin, the place you’re taking these descriptions of meme cash and guess whether or not they’re actual or pretend.

All proper. Let’s do it.

OK. Primary, Butthole Coin. This can be a coin marketed as the inspiration of flatulent finance. Casey, meme coin or dream coin?

I’m going to hope that that’s a dream coin.

No, that’s an actual meme coin. Its market cap is $40 million.

$40 million?

Sure.

It’s lots of butthole.

OK. Quantity two, that is Dad Coin, a utility token powered by dad jokes. Dad Coin goals to construct the world’s largest blockchain verified dad joke database. Casey, meme coin or dream coin?

That sounds actual. I’m going to go together with meme coin.

No, that one’s pretend. I made that up.

Oh, god.

OK. You’re 0 for two. Let’s maintain going.

Rattling.

Quantity three, Apple Canine Coin. This can be a coin impressed by a viral TikTok meme of a canine holding an apple in its mouth.

I’ll say meme coin.

That’s an actual meme coin. Market cap $14 million.

They usually stated that me watching TikTok would by no means profit me. However that’s how I knew that was actual.

OK. Subsequent one, Shoggoth. This can be a coin impressed by a 2023 “New York Occasions” column by Kevin Roose — I’ve heard of that man — about how a tentacled creature often known as a Shoggoth has grow to be a viral meme within the AI group.

I’m going to say that you simply couldn’t consider the rest, and so that you simply began studying your outdated columns and arising with them. So I’m going to go together with dream coin.

No, that one is actual.

Oh, my gosh.

It has a market cap of $31 million.

What?

I used to be type of horrified to find that this had been impressed by my column. I apologize to anybody who has misplaced their retirement financial savings playing on Shoggoth Coin. Please don’t try this.

That’s loopy.

I had nothing to do with it, for the document.

Oh, my gosh.

OK. In order that’s pump.enjoyable in a nutshell, the place all the things is so unusual that it’d as effectively be made up.

Kevin, I’ve to say, as you’ve been very helpfully explaining lots of necessary data to me, I’ve been having an expertise of feeling horrified.

Yeah?

Yeah.

You wish to say extra about that?

Nicely, we’ve talked about on the present just a few instances now that it appears huge swaths of American life are being transformed into methods for individuals to gamble. And whereas, moderately, I’ve no subject with individuals playing, I fear about this a lot time, consideration, and cash going into simply type of loopy hypothesis.

Sure, it’s playing. It’s actually considered one of many ways in which Individuals can now do basically legalized playing on their telephones or computer systems. Nevertheless it additionally strikes me because the financialization of stories. We are actually seeing from individuals on TikTok to individuals within the White Home, the factor that you are able to do very simply and rapidly capitalize on a surge in consideration directed your method. Within the outdated days, you’d see individuals go viral, after which they’d begin to hyperlink to their Patreon.

However now you are able to do such a extra direct type of capitalizing on consideration by simply launching your personal meme coin. And in reality, after the inauguration this yr, we noticed one thing like this occur the place Lorenzo Sewell, who’s the Detroit pastor who prayed at Trump’s inauguration, instantly after the inauguration made his personal meme coin, Lorenzo, and stated that each one proceeds from it would help his church.

So I do suppose we’re beginning to see a brand new sort of financialization of consideration, the place the minute you get notable for one thing, the minute persons are beginning to take a look at you, you wish to launch your meme coin to have the ability to rake in as a lot consideration within the type of cryptocurrency as you’ll be able to. I don’t suppose that’s an excellent factor for America.

I believe we must always return to doing what we used to do with these information occasions, which was we might simply create a novelty Twitter account for them. Do you keep in mind this? One thing would occur on the Oscars. After which it’s like, oh, that factor has a Twitter account now. One thing to consider.

There you’ve gotten it.

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Once we come again, consideration, please. MSNBC’s Chris Hayes is right here to speak about his new e book on consideration.

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Nicely, at present on the present, I wish to have a dialog about consideration.

Kevin, ever since you set your cellphone in jail for the easy crime of being attention-grabbing, you’ve been fascinated by the subject of consideration.

Sure, I’m fascinated by consideration and the varied ways in which we direct and misdirect our consideration and the varied apps and companies which can be attempting to get our consideration on a regular basis. And at present on the present, we’re going to have a dialog about consideration. And we’re going to have on Chris Hayes. Chris Hayes is the host of MSNBC’s nightly information present “All In.” He simply wrote a e book about consideration, referred to as the “Sirens’ Name: How Consideration Grew to become the World’s Most Endangered Useful resource.” It comes out subsequent week. And I learn an advance copy. It’s excellent.

And Chris argues that focus has grow to be a profoundly beneficial commodity in at present’s world. He argues that we’re trapped in a system of consideration gathering and maximization that we didn’t assemble, that we don’t have lots of selection over. And that has created a sense of alienation amongst most of the individuals, who really feel their consideration being pulled in ways in which they perhaps don’t need it to be.

Yeah, it does really feel like a situation of recent life that perhaps even on most days, you will see that your self doing one thing and suppose to your self, I don’t even wish to be trying on the factor I’m taking a look at. And but, I’m undecided how I can look away.

Sure. And clearly, it is a dialog that has lots to do with know-how and the ways in which social media apps and different types of know-how have discovered new methods to harness consideration. However I’m excited to speak to Chris about this subject as a result of he is not only a scholar and a critic of the eye financial system, he’s additionally a participant in it, similar to you and I are. He’s a cable information host.

And he’s within the enterprise of gathering individuals’s consideration. He’s an consideration service provider in addition to somebody who research the topic. So I needed to speak to him, not nearly his prognosis of our consideration drawback, but additionally what he personally does to harness his consideration. I really feel like that’s an space the place I’ve lots of bother. And I do know you do too.

That’s proper, Kevin. And along with the entire questions we had for Chris, he turned the tables on us and requested us for just a little little bit of steerage as he makes an attempt to navigate how AI will remodel our consideration atmosphere. In order that wound up being sort of a enjoyable twist.

Yeah, very enjoyable dialog with somebody who, I believe, has lots of worthwhile ideas about what’s going on in our consideration financial system and the way we would begin to repair it. Right here’s the dialog.

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